Strange how different are thinkers on morality and literature from post-modern thinkers

Here'a real dialogue with a smart guy who holds to a post-modern life stance

He has earlier declared that all books and morals are subjective and relative.

In a long detailed response, I explain that on the contrary, the study of literature is to find out what the author intended in his work.
Myself, American literature and world literature teacher:

We teachers studied literary criticism for years including the various schools. Our goal is similar to the biological sciences—to find out what is real and accurate.

However in the humanities and social sciences, it's more difficult to get at the accurate meaning than in the hard sciences.

Even in the latter, consider that the evolutionary biologist Stephen Jay Gould came to very different conclusions than some other famous biologists based upon the evidence.
For instance, his conclusion based on the facts is that deep time in biology is based in Chance!

He stated that IF reality could come again, the human species probably wouldn't even show up. We humans are here by cosmic “luck.”

In contrast evolutionary biologists Jerry Coyne and neuroscientist Sam Harris hold that existence, particularly for all humans and our actions would be exactly the same because everything is determined.
Allegedly, according to Harris, even IF the cosmos came again, all of us humans would do exactly the same because we are “puppets” of the cosmos.

Though, as I already said, it is more difficult to find what is true in literature and criminal justice, etc., the reason to study these fields is to find out what is objectively meant.

Subjectivity is to be avoided.

Most people find there is an objective qualitative difference between Shakespeare's plays and popular literature and the media.

For example, some of Ernest Hemingway's short stories are amazingly powerful and complex, far better than most stories, TV shows, and movies. Hemingway scholars are agreed that he hated Christianity, that his famous short story "A Clean Well-Lighted Place" is objectively brilliant and is a scathing attack against religion.

Post-Modernist:
Although I didn't agree with you on a fair number of things, I had held you in higher esteem than to think you would brazenly try to pass yourself off as knowledgeable about something which you can't fail to know that you know nothing about.
You didn't even want to educate yourself before responding, so you could have plausibly pretended to have known something about it. Instead, you insulted my intelligence by trying to pass off horseshit.

Daniel Wilcox
Hmm...3 universities, 5 school districts, post-graduate work, many years of teaching literature, attending post-grad conferences, etc. all taught us "horseshit."

I'll keep the horseshit;-)

Post-Modernist
Keep digging. My estimation of you just keeps going down. Either you have a problem with honesty, or senile dementia is setting it.

Either way, I'll avoid you in the future, as you're not worthy to debate.

Daniel Wilcox
Understanding the meanings of literature and basic reading comprehension tests don't register "like" or "dislike" but the ability to comprehend the texts.

Students study Shakespeare's plays because they are far better than studying inferior popular writing.

Finding what an author means when he writes is to discover the accurate view. Subjectivity needs to be avoided.

Post-Modernist
Just do me one favor, and answer the question...

Daniel Wilcox
I did answer your question and gave you two specific examples--the plays of Shakespeare and Hemingway's famous short story, "A Clean-Well-Lighted Place."

We teachers taught those for many years.

Please give me the name of a scholar who disagrees and I will read his point of view.

I also pointed out that reading comprehension tests aren't subjective.

We are seeking the accurate meanings.

Post-Modernist
The accurate meaning? According to who?
Are you trying to say that you think the point of literary criticism is to try to figure out what meaning the author was intending the reader to understand?<br>
Have I got that right? I want to give you more than ample rope with which to hang yourself.

Daniel Wilcox
In a short story, one has the author's conscious intent--the themes.

One also has the author's unconscious intent. One can see this very much in Hemingway's writing as I pointed out.

One can also check with the actual statements by the authors themselves of what they meant.

Then we need to remember the perspectives of us readers, our varying cultures versus the society and culture in which the story was created.

This is where most schools of literary interpretation come in.

Then there is also the factor, that sometimes a story (by conscious intent or not) is intentionally ambiguous. Or the story has, intriguingly, contradictory themes.

This is the basis for the outstanding work of Great Books Program which came out of the University of Chicago.

Like in any field whether philosophy or evolutionary biology or literature, there will often be disagreements about what the actual meaning is.

But, except for post-modernists, most scholars do think there is real meaning in the facts, essays, songs,and stories of humans.

Otherwise, why bother?!

Likes and dislikes don't need to be taught.

Remember my original example from the hard sciences--of how Gould's conclusions are very different from Harris and Coyne’s.

Yet all 3 do think that evolution has actual identifiable characteristics; they just haven't reached the point of figuring out which of them is correct, or if there are other possible explanations.


Ditto for literature, justice, and social sciences.
Subjectivity needs to be avoided.


In the Light,

Daniel Wilcox

Beautiful moral real Song of Hope and Good Actions

https://youtu.be/4y2WGjl_9n4?si=xWEkAUoef1zukIPU

LIVE for HOPE, despite...

LIVE for HOPE, despite...

Despite the horrific slaughters, oppressions, abuses going on at the present time by Russian Orthodox Christians, Islamic jihadists of Iran and many other Muslim fanatic regimes,
the immoral and unjust twistings by extreme Left (Democrats) and extreme Right (Republicans) in modern America,

And the past worst of worst 20th century with more than 150 million humans killed in 50 years...
over 150 million pre-born infants executed...

And the endless abyss of history past including the Napoleonic War, 7 Years War, English and American unCivil Wars,
Ottoman-Hapsburg War, 30 Years War, French Religious Wars, Crusades, and back...
DESPITE, all those worsts. And endless common crimes...

BECAUSE of the contrary OPPOSITE WITNESSES
through the ages of what is good, true, caring, kind, just, relational, rational,
sharing, patient, forgiving, humble, meticulously honest, generous, peaceful, protecting, rejoicing, unselfish, altruistic, wise, LET US
follow Transcendence (G-d), moral realism, reason, guided science, and human rights,
working diligently to create a better future.

Listen to the great minds from some ancient Hebrew prophets such as Amos,
Plato and other Greek thinkers,
altruistic versions of Asian and Buddhist thought such as Ashka in the 3rd century BCE, a convert to Buddhism who allegedly freed his slaves, emphasized non-violence, tolerance, hospitals, opposed slave-trading, and supported animal care.

Yeshua, Jewish apocalyptic reformer in the 1st century CE, who emphasized that all humans ought to love others as themselves, even their national enemies! But he was executed by the Romans.

Early Waldensians, Francis of Assisi, Petr Chelcicky and early Bohemian Brethren were opposed to war,
George Fox, William Penn, Swiss Brethren and Menno Simons, all pacifists,
Spanish leader Las Casas, anti-slavery against Native Americans,
peacemaker and abolitionist John Woolman,
19th century Abolitionists including Lucretia Mott,

Elizabeth Fry for prison reform, Leo Tolstoy, Gandh, Catherine Booth and her son Herbert Booth of The Salvation Army, Charles Harrison Mason, Black leader of Church of God in Christ and pacifist in 20th century, early Pentecostal leaders,
and of course MLK,
A.J. Muste, Nelson Mandela, Abdul Ghaffar Khan, Muslim pacifist leader,

Dorothy Day, Catholic pacifist and reformer, Catholic Thomas Merton,
Vietnamese Buddhist pacifist and reformer Thich Nhat Hanh, South Afrcan Desmond Tutu, Ronald J. Sider, leader in the Brethren in Christ,
and many more.


In the LIGHT,

Daniel Wilcox

Imagine George Fox Interacts with modern nontheist Quaker...

Consider somewhere countless individuals of real history and fictional ones exist and interact, coming together from human history, literature, media, and music.

What would Margaret Fell, William Penn, John Woolman, Lucretia Mott, Elias Hicks, Elizabeth Fry, Joel and Hannah Bean, Howard Brinton, Bayard Rustin have to say to each other?

Make your own educated guesses from your reading, viewing, and listening of past fictional and real individuals coming together to converse, act, and reflect.

Place all of the participating individuals in a particular place and time, a fictional or real setting.

Maybe, also have them talk with and interact with other actual famous individuals of history or the present time. For instance, Huck Finn (Mark Twain's novel), Wolf Larsen (Jack London's The Sea Wolf), and Captain Ahab (Melville's Moby Dick)
meet John Proctor (real individual of the Salen Trials) and Hester (Scarlet Letter).

Then they interact with Mayor Zohran Mamdani or President Trump or former President Biden, etc.

Playing around with time and space is a possible option, too. What if the European explorers didn't discover the Americas or the Reformation never occurred or Muhammad never existed
or the American Civil War didn't take place?

Or the current American political leaders show up in 1859...and meet Rhett Butler, Scarlet O'Hara (Mitchell's Gone with the Wind) and interact with Lucretia Mott and Martin Luther King Jr.?

The possibilities in this imaginative literary lounge are limitless:_).

In the Light,

Daniel Wilcox

For my websites of poetry, articles, and fiction

http://www.psalmsyawpshowls.com/

https://shimmeringpebblesinthelightstream.blogspot.com/

http://lastthings.weebly.com/

http://lightwaveseeker.weebly.com/

http://planktonpelican.weebly.com/

http://infiniteoceanoflightandlove.blogspot.com/

In the LIGHT of the GOOD, the TRUE, the JUST,

Daniel Wilcox

great song of Altruism, moral realism

by Barry McGuire https://youtu.be/bajO8CYnQ-Q?si=wAqE0jP8i-lhKhc4

"Lean in toward the LIGHT by Carrie Newcomer

https://youtu.be/QmJezOlfvF0?si=2-bCz69zNY_Zr4UF